Lessons in Resilience, Perseverance, and Leadership With Matt Eversmann

Like it literally like everybody's like, yeah, you're going to talk to your buddies. Like you're going to fly in F16. I'm going to be in the Marine Corps. I'm going to do that. And you're like, yeah, that's cool. It's sort of like, OK, I think I'm going to do that sometime. And but it was only some time. There's nothing definite in my life. It was always just a vague notion. And it's the youngest of four, you know, when it came time to, to leave high school and graduate college, I really had no earthly idea. And I, I, I, maybe I had a little, but nothing much more than I should go to college because my siblings did, you know, like that.

That's the, that's the, the natural line of drift. And I wound up at, at, at Hampton Sydney College in central Virginia, which is a great school and a story for another day, maybe later. But even there it was. Now what do I do? And the thought of, well, you know, I, I, I, I don't know what I like, what I want, what I'm good at, all that kind of shit. Pardon me. And it just wound up being like, well, I guess I ought to be a, an economics major because my dad was a businessman.

And, you know, but, and my idea that sometime I'll just to land a plane, I'm going to go back to Natural Bridge and I'll, I'll, I'll take over from my parents and run there their hardware store in their lumber yard. Like that was about as close to any semblance of order and plan that I could have even dreamed up. And that's probably given myself a little bit of credit. Well, I think, you know, when you're 17 or 18 years old and you're looking at college, or if you're not going to college, you know you're going to do something else. The idea that you're supposed to know what you want to do for the next 30-40 fifty years is kind of insane. You know, like even trying to figure out what you want to study in college is really difficult because you know, and for the most part, you don't have these paths in high school where they sort of say, oh, well, if you like writing, go do this or if you like science, go do this. And everybody gets to college and they're like, well, I guess I'll be a business major.

Like you said, economics. I don't really have any other idea unless you have like a real special, you know, I want to go to Med school or, you know, something like that. It's, you know, asking, especially an 18 year old boy like like you or I was like, what do you want? I don't know. I want to go meet some girls. Exactly. I mean, I'm drinking beer and playing in mud puddles. That's what I I the the occasional eraser, you know, my wife and I really and it wasn't very it was just like this continuous conversation we've had and I know I'm jumping forward about just that.

And then and, you know, because I realized after, you know, cratering at at Hampton Sydney after three years, you know, look back and of course your first thing is like, man, I'm an idiot, I'm stupid. I'm you know, all those things. And I'm like, yeah, there are some things I just don't get. Like I just macroeconomic theory just doesn't, you know, it doesn't fit. It doesn't mean I'm dumb. It just means I, I didn't really have aptitude for it. And that kind of was when I started thinking, which is will be a later discussion, I'm sure in this conversation about like you, you know, I can't quite be so bold to say there's no such thing as failure because clearly there is by definition.

But this idea like, you know, I, I didn't have the aptitude and I certainly didn't have the maturity and I didn't have all these things when I was 18 years old. And, you know, there was so much expected and, and to a degree rightly so, Dennis, you know, but it was like, man, if you mess this one up, buddy, you know, you're, you're going, you're going over the Cliff into the chasm, never to be seen again. And you know, your your life is done. And and that's how we all kind of well, certainly how I felt. And maybe we, we drifted a little too far, you know, with our daughter.

I don't think we did, but we're like encourage her. If you're good at filling the blank in school and you want to study that what, why not? You know, I don't want to go be a neurosurgeon, A neuroscientist. I again, those gifted kids do it. But you know, for the rest of us, it's like, man, you know, I, I love history. Go study history and don't listen to all the people like, well, you'll never make any money, you know, doing that. You know, that's just again, industrial age logic. That is, is stupid, but I digress. I apologize that that was a long winded answer to your question about where.

I thought to myself where where I thought I was going. But that's, I mean, I think you're exactly right there, Matt, because like when I was going to school, like I knew I wanted to be a writer. And, you know, I had taken some journalism classes in high school and thought, OK, this is cool. And so that's what I studied in college. And I do remember my dad who was an engineer and, you know, my mom was a teacher, but my dad was like, what the hell are you going to do as a journal? And how are you going to make money? That's cool that you're a good writer. We love that. How will you make money as a journalist, especially in, you know, like the early 1990s when I was getting out of college, you know, now it's a completely, there's different paths. But back then it was like, you go find a job in a newspaper, then you get a job at a bigger newspaper and then hopefully that continues, right?

And you're still not going to make any money. So it was just kind of, I didn't think about it. I was like, I don't know, I'm good at this. This is what I want to do. And it's interesting, you know, and I, I watched all the President's men too many times. So here we go. And you know, not to be super mushy, but I hope and I know that's true. They are. But you know, I hope that we haven't all, you know, that we're never stifling creativity. And that does mean for kids that want to go paint and do, you know, literally the arts, you know, you can be a creative engineer and, you know, investment banker.

And also, but that, that idea of, of, of doing that, which I've kind of learned later in life, like, man, that's a, that's a gift from God that, that, you know, I think everybody's got a little bit of. And how else are you, how else are you going to define yourself out in the business world? And again, industry agnostic, where, where, where are you? How are you going to differentiate yourself, You know, unless you've got creativity and passion and you know, all those things that we kind of poo poo, you know, about like, oh, you know, go out and work and, you know, put your shoulders into it and work hard and you'll be good.

You're like, I'm not so sure that that's the recipe for success. Not always, no. And you know, in the cybersecurity world where I've worked for 25 years, a lot of the most successful and most interesting people I've met in this world did not study computer science or engineering or anything like that. Some of them were like studied library sciences or they were, you know, communications majors like me or English or history majors or, you know, Fine Arts majors who just brought some sort of critical thinking and outside perspective to the hard problems that people are trying to solve.

And, you know, there's not I, I do feel like we sometimes gloss over that and, and don't encourage people to, you know, maybe this lane isn't for you. Go try this. You know, like like you did. Truly, I mean, you know, overused fridge when we say 100%, but it it, it is just so true. And you know, I think that mindset and again, I know this sounds a little Pollyanna for for some people, you know, that are just built in right angle people that are like this is the only way. This is the process. This whatever that is in life.

I get that and God love you and that's that's great for you, not for me. But this idea like, man, you know, you, you if, if, if, if you, if you run into that roadblock and you realize after some really good hard thought and prayer, like I'm, I'm not getting it, You know, like this, this really is we're at that Rubicon point and it's like, not, not where I need to go, go try something else. You know, the worst things happened is you try something else and that doesn't work and you come back to home base like that. That is it because if not like, do you want to be that guy? And I mean, this probably is what scares me the most is being that person that was locked into fill in the blank for fill in the blank years.

And and, you know, becomes that cautionary tale like, yeah, you know, I hated every job I've ever had, right? No, that was absolutely my worst nightmare. Yeah. And I, I, I don't think I could have like I would, I would have found some way out of it there. There's no way I I'm not one of those people that could have done. And it doesn't sound like you are either, Matt. Like it just wouldn't. And I know those people. You know, I've plenty of friends that, you know, yes, they make good livings or whatever, but boy, are they not happy with what they're doing and it's not fulfilling. And they're, you know, they get up every morning and they're like, oh shit, well, here we go.

And you're just like, man, you can't, you got to find a way. And I, I mean to kind of bring it back. You, you mentioned, you know, like things didn't go the way you wanted them to go when you're at Hamden Sydney. And so you did you just kind of take a look around. I think you had a brother that went to BMI my the West Point of the South. Let's go baby. And then see, did you just kind of think, you know, the military could be a good option for me? Well. If, if you don't remember that, that, you know, hey, you know, I'll always, you know, maybe I'll fly jets, you know, and I'll be the Marines because everybody wants to be the Marines. And I'd say that action for our Marine Corps brethren, but yeah, that that that timetable sort of started getting closer because I did wind up going home working for my parents. You know, the Hampton, Sydney folks put me on a sabbatical, which was really very kind to them. And they should have done it way earlier. But, you know, they they did.

I mean, who fails out after their junior year, literally the summer before your senior year? They're like, take a break bow. And again, and rightly so, Well deserved. Totally my all me, but I was working at I love to share this story, Dennis, not to sound so grand, but it just it it was such a great moment in my life. I was working for my parents, you know, delivering sheetrock and two by fours doing that stuff. And it was the spring. It was the fall of of two of 1987 Ronald Reagan president, you know, commander in chief and we're we're still fighting the Russians and or going to stop the Russians in Germany in the folder gap Cold War stuff. And this kid I went to high school with walked into the lumber yard and I get I can picture him right now. He you know, he's always, he was a decent athlete, you know, he played ball together, but he walked in and he, he, you know, he he stood a little straighter and shoulders were a little back.

OK. It was just like right out of a recruiting poster. I hadn't seen him. He went up. He had gone to WNL. He gone to Washington Lee and lost track and, and I'm like, hey, Kevin, how's, how's everything at W now? He's like, oh man, you know, I failed out like 1 semester. I'm like, we're, you know, kindred spirits. And I'm like, well, So what are you doing now? And he's like, oh, I, you know, I joined the join the army and I'm like, oh, you know, first it's like, that's cool. I'm like, where do you, what do you do? It's like, oh, I'm, I'm an MP and I I'm in Berlin and I'm thinking, Dan, it's like I might as well have been the moon, you know? I mean, I've never even.

Been on Oh for sure. You know, Berlin and he's just, I remember he stood there across the counter and he probably 20 minutes just telling me stories of being a soldier in Berlin with, you know, divided and literally talking about the spy transfers, you know, at the gate and early. And it, it, it was literally like a magic carpet ride that for me. And I, I just, I remember going home and I told my parents, you know, I, I, I saw Kevin Topping and, and, you know, told him the same story.

And I said, I think I'd like to go talk to the recruiter. And my mom and dad were like, you know, go, man, go, go see what's up. And I think it, you know, as I've looked back on it, I think what I realized that it wasn't necessarily the Army was my my calling as much as I realized, you know, I got to do something on my own. You know, I, I have to accomplish something. I got to, I got to put one in a win column. You know, I'm the youngest. I, I'm, I, my brothers and sisters are, you know, just brilliant and smart and great and awesome and they're awesome brothers and sisters.

And I'm like, I, you know, I'm the weakest lane kind of thing. And and the Army seemed like to me knowing nothing, I literally knew nothing really about the Army other than what have learned, you know, the recruiter like that, that this could be something that basic training is probably harder than, you know, fraternity initiation. And you know, let me go see if let me kind of go see if I can do it. I think that was was, really, and not that I'm that dramatic A thinker about my development as an 18 year old or 20 year old by then, but I do remember thinking I got to do something hard and the Army gave it to me. That's interesting.

You know, my, my dad is a Army captain retired like, you know, the long before I was born or a few years before I was born. And you know, I, I did hear a lot of he was in the Vietnam area. He didn't serve in Vietnam, but he was in Huntsville, AL doing like missile stuff. And so he had like some experience and he had always sort of like I talked to him about the military when I was growing up because I wasn't like the most disciplined kid on earth and didn't totally know what I was going to do. And he he didn't like warn me off.

He was just like, I don't, I don't know. I don't, I don't know that that's for you, Like, but whatever, you know, and I had friends in high school who went that route and that kind of thing. And you know, some of my college buddies after college ended up joining the military as well. But I completely understand that mentality of like, I need to go do something hard and see if I can do that, like see where my limits are, see what I can accomplish. You know, especially when you're 192021 years old and you really want to kind of like, now's the time. Yeah.

Let's go see what this is all about. And you know, as you said, that was 878080. 8 The end of it I did. I listed December 27th, 1987, went to basic, you know, two days later, I think I was down there for New Year's Eve. There you go. But yeah, no, I didn't mean to cut you off, but it is. It's like, you know, you need that, that need. And listen, I, I, I, I know this about myself. Back then, it wasn't particularly adventurous, not that I necessarily AM, but I do think I, I, I did have a, a, a pretty solid work ethic. And, and again, my academic prowess wasn't what it was, but it wasn't a lack of effort.

And that I can say, and I think that's kind of important to the story. Wasn't like, hey, I was just, you know, boozing it. I mean, I drank a lot clearly, like most kids did. But you know, I, I lived in that library and people look at me like, yeah, you know what? I'm sure you did. I'm like, no, I, I, I, I lived in, in that library. And it, so it wasn't that, that the lack of effort, it was, you know, it just didn't have the skills. And I think that that was the thing about the Army that that again, looking back on my entire career that I love was that, you know, if you put in the effort, you know, literally, if you, if you, if you follow the rules, keep your nose above water, you know, do do the right things and do it absolutely with everything you got, you can be successful.

And like, that's just, it doesn't mean you're going to be in every single task, but it does generally speaking in that institution. You will, you will do, you will do well. And that was a great, I think reinforcement for me that now I'm out on my own, this new world. And, you know, the hard work, the meritocracy pieces really do really do work. And just as a quick footnote, I appreciate that, you know, there are people out there listening like Matt, you know, the army socks and blah, blah, blah. And it's, you know, crazy.

And I'm like, of course it is. It's a 500,000 person strong bureaucracy that is goofy in so many ways. And there's the toilet, $500 toilet, all that stuff. But that's bell curve. You know that that is usually, in my opinion, that's on the bell curve. And if you get to the to the centre mass of it, you know, that organization, it's only as good as people, but it lets it it, it rewards, generally speaking, good effort, hard work, and just, you know, great initiative.

Did it, did it kind of click for you right away after you, you know, say you got through basic or whatever and did you think, OK, I this is something that I think I can do. Yeah, no, it did. And, and it's so funny and, and this is a goofy story, but you know, the, you go to basic training. We've all seen movies and TV shows and you know, you're sleeping in this big open Bay in your bunks and they, they show you how to, they show you how to do everything, which is really quite brilliant when you think about it, because a lot of people don't know how to make a bed. Literally, that's the whole story. Like they're like, this is hospital corners on your bed. Well, you know, not to be like, I'm so great because my mom showed me, but like I knew how to do it. And it was like Pythagorean Theorean, you know, standards of, of, of getting those, those folds right. But like that all made sense.

All, you know, everything was written, all the rules, total right angle stuff. And I'm like, now we're cooking. I, I got it. I, I can, I can follow this formula. The funny thing though, and I thought about this so often, is that, and maybe that's true for everybody, but I think, you know, once you learn the system, once you learn, you know how to keep doing this like a right angle, like AT square. You like, then you learn, OK, you can, you can, you can widen the aperture a little more for me and everything doesn't have to be, you know, absolutely 100% by the rules in the sense of now we can we can we can open up that range fan for you so that you can you, you individual soldier can start making some decisions and you can take a little bit of liberties of you know, how you're going to accomplish a task. And it doesn't have to be necessarily, you know, A-Z. You might only have to do, you know, A to T and there might be some steps in in certain

circumstances. And again, keyword that you can, you can hedge on, you can skip and you know, you found then now the commanders that are giving you a lot of latitude and less guidance and expecting you to, to move. I guess that's the thing, you know, that, that allowing you to move within wide, wide parameters. I found myself really enjoying that part. You know, you learn the basics really, really strictly, you know, and the expectations also. But then you can, you can let off those, you know, you can, you can open up the goal post or whatever analogies were used and let that let, let people run.

And, and that I found really a cool, really exciting. Of course, that's what the special operations community really is about. It's, you know, balance between both the, the really strict process and protocols to, you know, incredible problem solving and individual thinking. Anyway, I covered a lot of bases in there, sorry. No, that's a, that's a perfect segue to where I wanted to go next. Because I think a lot of folks from the outside who, you know, watch movies and read books about the military, you think about it as that rigid institution that you describe, Matt, where you're like, here are rules. You follow those rules.

And that's what you do every single day for X amount of years. But in a situation like you were in, you know, in in Somalia, in the battle of Mogadishu, that is not a situation that followed any rules. Like everything that could have gone wrong went wrong over and over and over again. And you have to have some critical thinking and problem solving skills to be able to react. And, you know, anybody who's Googled your name will, will know what your role was there.

But you were that was like your first leadership position, right? Like you were a brand new leader before you deployed to Somalia for that mission. Yeah, no, it, it, it was. And and you know, the, the interesting thing Dennis is, and again, there's plenty of holes to shoot, you know, in the military in general, whatever branch and and I got it and they're probably all correct. Whatever anyone's experienced with a bureaucracy and you know, and people, you know, sometimes it's the good old boy club, good old girl club gone bad. Sometimes you bad people in command and that sucks. But in general, again, going back, you know, the thing that I found wonderful and I think was so helpful was sort of build on what I just said a minute ago.

You've got this, this self licking ice cream cone of, of accountability and responsibility, particularly in the special operations world, but in the Army in general, that that's constantly developing the young men and women to do. You're being groomed to be the next level. And the next day, like, you know, you're actually kind of shunned and looked at with disfavor. If you just want to be, you know, the professional private, so to speak, you know, and again, it's, it's, it's the triangle and all that meritocracy, blah, blah, blah.

But you know, if you're not trying to improve, you find that you're, you're really not, you're not, you're really not going to be in the club that long. And so to just to bring that in, yeah, you know, you're, you're learning as you go. And, and for me in, in Mogadishu, you know, we, we've been in, in country for, you know, a month and a half and, and done some missions. And, you know, a couple of days before the end of September, my, my chalk leader, the guy in charge of our helicopter got called home on a on a Red Cross message.

You know, a Red Cross alert mom had been diagnosed with terminal illness. And you know, it's the protocol, like, you know, soldier goes and you go home, the next in the chain of command, the next in the succession plan, you know, steps up to be in charge. And that happened to be to be me. And, and I, I think to the to that point, it's funny, you know, out here, the difference between that scenario I just described Dennis and, and you know, real life out here where I remember we were at the beach.

I promise I'll come back to the Mogadishu store, but we're at the beach right, Right after I retired. I think. No, I guess it was right before I, before I went to Iraq. It must have been because I had two weeks leave. We were at the beach with another two families and the, the two husbands were, were finance guy. They were Wall Streeters in, in New York and wives had all gone to school together. That's how I got in that, that little club. And it was fascinating talking about, you know, I'm on, you know, my two weeks leave. So I'm, I'm enjoying every second of every checked out. Like there's no, you know, there's no army in me. And these two guys, you know, are, are, are constantly there at the beach on the phone just before we're all so nutty about cell phones, but they're on the phone all the time. Got to leave the beach, leave the kids got to go back to the house and and do something for work. And I remember saying, like, you know, dude, what's what's going on?

I can't somebody else do that. And he's like, no, you know, I can't let anybody else do that. Then then then you know I'm out of a job. Right. Then my worth is diminished. Yeah, and. And anyway, that whole thing, I was just like, that wasn't what we were thinking, you know, in the military. And for good reason, you know? So, yeah, you, you, you get thrust into this role of, of, hey, man, it's time to go. And I think falling back, if you dissect it, the training, you know, the regiment of the training and the reason we do the training to great standards, the right angle side of it, you know, is what's going to pay off in a in a crisis.

You know, and I've learned this lesson, you know, that standards, you know, high standards determine outcomes before chaos like that. That's my pithy little quote of the day. And I did, I realized like that that's it because you're going to get in this position in a Crucible experience, whether it's on a battlefield, on hawala dig road or fill in the blank in whatever industry where there's nobody to come save you literally and figuratively.

You know, if I can just paint this picture, Dennis for a second, you know, I mean this October 3rd where we're going in on this mission and I'm in charge and literally daylight raid and, and on the, the insertion, we got put in the wrong spot. One of my soldiers falls off the fast rope, you know, falls down. I got immediate casualty. My, my radios don't work. I can't communicate with the, the commander. And in like 20 seconds, we're automatically all of a sudden we're in a firefight.

You know, we're, we're taking fire, you know, literally from three directions. And this all happens like again, 2030 seconds, you know, like you can't even, I remember thinking, I can't even contemplate how all this stuff go wrong so quickly. You know, there's not a training scenario like, hey, let's bury this young soldier, you know, with so many mind boggling challenges and let's just, you know, ha, ha, ha, watch him struggle. Like, you know, maybe you do one or two, but. Right, right.

You know, and, and this all leads back to this point that if you're groomed, that it's all you and only you, if that's what you really believe, one that's incredibly arrogant and you know, so self-righteous and self-centered. But on the other hand, that's the surefire recipe for disaster because, you know, either, you know, you take one in the Peach or you just have no control over the situation. So you've got to figure it out. It's the whole the whole point that's going to happen. It's going to happen in in battle and it's going to happen in life and it's going to happen in business. I think you only get out of it by by by preparing, you know, by training and, and that that high standard kind of stuff. Anyway, sorry to suck all the oxygen out of the room. No, that's, I mean, that's exactly what I was getting at. I think, you know, you mentioned your, that your commander, your, your superior officer had been called home for a medical emergency.

And so you were sort of thrust into this, you know, maybe it would have happened six months later for, for you or something like that, but you were kind of thrust into it. And then a few days or weeks later you, you know, you fast rope down a helicopter and everything goes to shit in 45 seconds. And you don't have that commander to fall back on. You can't look around and be like, wait, where's the adult? Oh, I'm the adult. Uh oh. Like you have to be able to react, right? Like you have to be able to your men are looking at you, you have to have some answers for them.

A. 100% and, and I think that again, you know, so many lessons I learned from that everybody does from at least you, you talk to anybody else on that battlefield anywhere and they've, they've got some very similar and some very different, you know, experiences and lessons learned. So again, I, I, I said earlier, I can only tell you what I, what I learned, but what I learned there, and I think truly right off the bat, what got me through was being in that, that moment where I'm like, holy shit, I really don't know. I don't have an answer. Like I, I, I am that adult, I'm the grown up in the room. I don't have an answer and the clock's ticking And oh, by the way, you know, when you start thinking about it and it just starts to, to manifest itself.

And this idea like, man, the more I'm trying to to remain calm and think that I got to do something, I don't have an answer, the more, you know, excited I'm getting. And you get to that point, at least again, me, pardon me, you get to that point where you're like, holy shit. If I don't, if I don't say something, you know, we're, we're going to, we're going to fail, we're going to implode. And that I can vividly picture it. I was kind of standing in the middle of the street and it was probably only for a few seconds, but it felt like, you know, time just stops. And I was watching the guys, my Rangers, you know, in the fight and Dennis, I swear it was just like immediately I remember thinking like, man, we're going to be all right. These guys, they're doing exactly, exactly what they're supposed to do.

I mean, it might not be the perfect, you know, training standards, but they're getting after it. And these two, you know, 20 year olds and 21 year olds are, are, are, are just duking it out with the enemy. And I haven't said one thing to him. I haven't given one command. No, nothing like they're on autopilot. They're doing their jobs just as they, just as they train, just as we rehearse, just as we planned in the most challenging environment. And I realized like, man, they're the, they're, I got the easy part. They're they're the guys that are that are fighting. All I got to do is just be a problem solver. And this is an easy problem to solve. I don't got to solve all of them. I just got to solve the, the, the, the, the, the, the most important, which is the loss of life. And that like that changed the whole, they, they changed the whole day for me.

And then again, certainly scary. Don't get me wrong. My it's easy to be sound really brave, you know, in West Palm Beach, FL. But you know that, that moment, though, it wasn't me the, the, the, the leader in the org chart, you know, it was a young Sergeant. You know, it was the young special, like, you know, the privates, the, the, the kids on the front line. They, they were the centre of gravity and they, they did their job. And like, you know, kind of important lesson back to the beach. And you know, the beach story. It's like, if you're in a culture where it all depends on you, I'm like, who do you?

I don't want to be you and I certainly don't want to work for you, because this is just bullshit. That's exactly right. Yeah. That whole idea of like one person being a single point of failure in an organization, that's like, that's bad organization, it's bad management. It's arrogant thinking the way that you put it earlier, Matt, like nobody else can do what I do. Like I'm the guy, Like I'm the only one who can push this button on the computer. Get out of here.

A million other people can do what you're doing. You just happen to be in that job right now. And you know, it's a completely different, you know, mindset into what you're talking about on an actual battlefield. But you know, if you're in that, that sort of self-centered, arrogant mindset of like, I'm the most important part of this whole equation, you're not going to be able to solve a lot of problems because you're going to see everybody else is the problem, you know, and you're not going to be able to look, look outward and say like, oh, no, there's OK, I can actually go help with that. And you're not just, you know, yelling orders at everybody like you could have been, I'm sure.

Yeah, no, 100% and, and I will say just as the comma, but because that exposes the other side, the bad side of of military leadership in the hierarchy and the strict protocols and the regimen and all that stuff is that you can, I think inadvertently get to what you just described, Dennis, because everybody, you know, the tyrant, you know, always, always wins because the law, you know, is behind them.

And you know, you, you, you. And I'm sure we've seen it out here in the civilian world, but certainly in the military, you know, the the the reinforced negative, you know, nothing bad happened under his or her watch. And they were in favor of somebody because they're, you know, somewhat of a sycophant or a lap dog or whatever. And, and the system works that, that bad people do get promoted and you know, that, that 100% does does happen. And, you know, it's unfortunate and it sucks when it does because it kind of, you know, ruins it for, for the rest of us.

But they start believing that, you know, I, I, you know, I am, I am, I am the gift. In fact, I remember talking to this, to this one retired Colonel and we're having a leadership discussion and, and by no means folks, am I the, the expert on, on any of this? Like not, but he was talking to this group about, you know, kind of command philosophy or some army, you know, way up here kind of stuff.

And they're like all doctrinally correct. You know, I, I give them my blah, blah, blah. And this is how we do mission planning and all that kind of shit. And, you know, we're talking to this group of civilians and the civilian asked a question, a leadership question. Now he's talking up at a more senior military level and I'm, you know, my level is down here at the the ground at the tactical level where I'm assuming this person asking the question is coming from. And so the answer, as you might imagine, comes from, you know, the senior command level, like kind of everybody does what I say. And you know, you just call them, you know, you, you just tell them, you know that they.

Need 'cause I said so. And Z and I'm like, hey, that ain't going to work at, you know, Price Waterhouse Cooper like that. They're going to, you know, say no and and off you go. And I remember afterwards just sort of floating it by like, hey, well, well, what happens if you know, you know, Joe 6 pack says, yeah, I'm not, I'm not I'm not buying that. And you know, looked at me like, you know, how dare he? And I'm like, dude, you're missing that what you're talking is not reality.

Like that's not how it works. You know, you're talking comedian structure. And, you know, if you're asking me about leadership at my level, I'm like, how do I get, how do I get that, You know, that that whomever just asked that question to follow me down the dark alley just so to speak, Like that's the base. How do I get her to do that? Because she doesn't want to. And if I hadn't had the opportunity to train her and do all this kind of stuff systematically, like in the military, how do I connect with her and, and, and just get her to do her shit really well?

And you're in life. Two different theories. And I think sometimes the Army promotes that when it's not always that realistic. Anyway, just my, you know, my $0.02. No, but I mean, I feel like the the training side of that is what's important because like in the situation that you were in in Mogadishu, like that's what the training is for, right? Like you mentioned, your guys just on their own knew what to do. You know, these are 2021 year old guys in the worst situation of their lives and probably hadn't been in that before.

They didn't totally know what to do, but they were like, OK, instinct training this. I'm going to go here, he's going to go there. We're going to figure this out and, you know, that's what the training is for. You fall back on that until, you know, then you can start solving problems in some kind of sequence. But yeah, in the civilian world, where did the leadership style is? You know, because I said so like, or because I'm 4 levels above you and I went to, you know, Harvard ambient that, like you said, get out of here with that. Like, tell me why.

Like give me, give me a reason why I'm supposed to, you know, think that you're a leader or show me, you know, more importantly, give me some evidence that you've actually done something worthy of following. And a lot of people just don't, you know, they kind of assume that once they get into a management or leadership position, the title confers all of the authority and and responsibility that it that is necessary. Yeah, no, absolutely. And and, and you know, and I think it's at least again my, my experience coming out in my 40s to the new world and, and again with my ideas of again, kind of and, and not all 100% correct, but it's my only database which to correct, you know, compare leadership to leadership, new civilian, you know, leadership to that.

And not again, always fair, but in one sense it it should be. And what you find out here is it took me a while to to figure it out too. And again, this is a little broad. So this is not like everybody out here is bad. It's certainly not a work for some amazing leaders out here. Just to, you know, cut to the chase that I always say they're the ones that missed their calling. Like would have been great to be in the Rangers or the but you know what you find like a lot of a lot of small companies, my experience has been, man, somebody had a really great idea, like a really, really brilliant, I'm talking to clearly entrepreneurial stuff and which I love, you know, really great idea.

Absolutely just brick and hit it right over the green monster just crushed it. Had the wherewithal to get some smart people to help and off they go to the races. They build this company and everybody wants to go and jump in and whatever it is and they can't lead for shit. You know, really good at whatever it is and you know, really made a lot of dough and really always. But as far as solving problems for their people and getting the best out of their people, it's just like, hey, where you, you, you, you either, you know, respect the salary or, or, or beat it. You know, we, we have no interest at all in helping you outside of these four walls as I don't give one shit and just suck it up.

Whereas you've got 22 year olds, you know, that are, are responsible for making sure that a 19 year old's paying his bills, you know, and, and treating his. And, and I'm not suggesting we got to go that far, but you can see where I've got I, I, I care about you far more than just being able to squeeze the trigger. So in there I'm like, we have lost that out here, at least it seems to me. No, I think you're right. I've seen that 1000 times in the tech world where you have a founder or a founding team that has this great idea and they get it to a certain level. And then they need adult leadership to come in and say, OK, we got it from here.

You know, you guys can, you can be the chief engineer or whatever, but you're not ACEO anymore. Like you, you got us from one employee to 40 or whatever. Here come the adults and some founders are like, oh, thank God, good. I want to just go build this thing again. Some lose their minds and fight and those companies typically don't make it. But you know, it's it's a tough, you know, come to Jesus type thing for everybody. Some people are relieved and some people are like, no way, this is my company.

Like you see, that's it's me, like I am the company. But if you're, you know, if you want the organization as a whole to succeed, you can't, you can't really hold on to that that tightly. No, no, and, and, and again, I, you know, far be it for me to can't see anybody's soul, but I, I just, my experience has been then on that other lens, Dennis, where somebody, oh, you know, Matt's the leader of that company. It's like, oh, Matt's an idiot. You know, again, Matt's got a lot of dough.

Matt, you know, he's the guy you just talked about. So we're like, man, that guy's leadership. He, he, he's hit. I'm like, no, he's not. He's he's horrible. Like would you want to follow him down the alley? Which again, quite unfair, A litmus, but enamour like wow, but he made a shit ton of dough and and that's that's the name of this. Again, you all want to, but you're going to work for this clown. Like literally, you know, on the promise that maybe you're you're really going to hit a pig with Joe. By the way, you're not because he's never going to let you. You know he no.

Absolutely. Going to let you though, he's just going to squeeze you until you're, you're just dry and Gee, anyway, I, I, I, you know, it's just an interesting thing, Dennis, this whole idea, which I think if I take a really big leap, you know, so many times I, I, I just keep thinking it's like my wife says to this when, when, when something, you know, unpleasant happens. So you have some unpleasant experience with another human, you know, in this case, we'll talk about it Work. You're like, you know, just people being people, You know, they're just people being people. The arrogance, the rudeness, the, you know, suddenly, you know, it seems more often the bad behaviour, but it really is the bad behaviour.

And, and, and I think so often it's like, man, just, you know, follow the golden rule folks. I mean, if you've got to an organization and you understand the mission, regardless of any kind of org chart, you know, if you just understand the mission and you're like, I, I, I give a shit about the I'm sorry, my mouth should be washed. Please. You know, we just, I really actually do care about the people on my left and right. Theoretically, the thing should run and and I don't understand how now in the military again, I'd love it, but has has has weaponized this idea that you can be a friendly leader like truly.

And I got to tell a quick story this. Please. Because, you know, I got to, when I got to Iraq in, in 2006, you fly into everybody, you fly into Kuwait playing in the middle of the night. And, you know, so the bad guys can't see it. And you get off the plane and it's about a 5,000,000° and you get in these buses, these school buses and all the school bus, you know, like old, you know, school bus, they have all curtains on the inside. So again, apparently the bad guys at midnight can't, you know, see the gringo sitting in his seat and you leave the, the, the airfield to go to, you know, the cantonment area, wherever they've got the, the barracks.

You're going to stay in Kuwait for a couple of days. And anyway, as you're leaving the airfield in this bus, they've got Serpentine barriers, you know, these big Jersey cement. You see them on the side of the highway and they're staggered. So, you know, the suicide bomber can't just drive in. You got to you got to do really broad, you know, S turns to go out about, you know, a mile an hour. It's just brutal. And I'm sitting here by the window and I'm, I'm peeking out, you know, through the curtains and I'm noticing that on each of these Jersey barriers, someone had a good idea that we're going to stint. Someone in the military said we're going to stencil, you know, some pep talk, you know, catch phrase or something. And you know, it's like, you know, check your magazines and drink water and all, you know, you're like, OK, you know, reminder that we send a message and all that kind of shit. And then there's this one, I'll

never forget it said we need leadership, not likership. And I'm like, you know, I just want to stick a knife in my temple because it's like somebody and then somebody at a senior level said this is a good idea. And, and it was, you know, we, we, you got to be strong, man. It's going to be hard. And you know, you can't just sweet talk your way. I mean, I, I get that on one sense, but on the other, it's the license to give people to be assholes. And it's like, you know, you have to do what you say by law, as long as it's not illegal, unethical or immoral. And if you don't, I'm just going to yell at you even louder, you know, and and that's the solution. I've watched it a million times and you're like, you know, this guy is really going to want to follow you down the dark alley. To which I'd also say to people, Dennis, I'm like, hell yeah. I'd like them to like me.

I'm going to enforce the rules, of course, but I'm not going to let anybody slide. But I'd really like them to like me because when I do run down there, you know, in the middle of the night with my gun and my flip flops because we got to go, I hope that they're trying to beat me. Like, I hope that they're like, I, I, I want to follow that Eversman guy because he, he's a good dude and he treated me well. You know, that's just, I don't understand that. I don't either. Yeah. Like, this is the thing that I've, like tried to instill in my kids from the time they were little. Life is so much easier if you're not an asshole. Just like be nice, do what you're supposed to do. Life will be so much simpler.

Like, it just it it sounds so simplistic. And you know, Polly and whatever, it's just true. Like whatever organization you're in or whatever team you're on or situation you're in. Don't. Be a jerk. Dennis, I, I, I hate to do this, but I got to throw a question to you and because, because it's on the tip of my tongue, like, why do you think people do that? Like why do you, you know, you're in a, you've been, you're in, you got a, you got 25 LB brain folks around you all the time, really smart, really talented, really. I mean, I, I, I know that group in a sense, I don't understand it, but I do know that group.

You know, you must see it. You know, the arrogance, the assholes, and of course there's great people, but why do you think you'll like that? Is there? Should their parents be beaten or what is it? Some of it I do think is like insufficient parenting on some level, but also I think once some of these folks in it, this is not a blanket statement or by any means, But for some people, once they have that first kind of real taste of success and it's something that they created or did, or, you know, they're, they're primarily responsible for that success.

They get it in their heads that they, you know, they just can't fail or, you know, they are the, the big Wiz. They're they're it and they can't be disabused of that notion. No matter, no matter how many failures they might stack up later. They're they just have that mentality of like, it's me, man. I'm the one, you know, it's, it's something you see in professional athletes. I think by, by they have to have it because otherwise they wouldn't keep going back out there. You know, it wouldn't make any sense if they didn't think they were going to succeed again.

But yeah, it's a weird thing. And it's, you see it in all walks of life too. I'm positive you saw it plenty of times. But yeah. And again, it's not trying to be, you know, like we're all unicorns and, you know, fairy dust kind of stuff. But I think your your comment about, you know, what you tell your kids and I almost would go so far. Maybe I would not almost, I would say like if you can't do that, like if you can't just treat people well and just not be an asshole, You know, you're you're you're setting yourself up for an incredible fall whenever it's going to be, but it will happen because sooner or later you're going to come across a bigger asshole and he or she's going.

To yes. Going to make it hurt and. It's the same with bullies. You know, there's always a bigger bully, like somebody's somebody's meaner. I, I think everyone gets so dramatic in their pendulum shift and they're like, oh, you know, you're just, you know, you, you, you're just being a softie and you're not enforcing standards. And lots of like, no, not that. I'm just just like, we spend more time with these people than we do the people. We, we, we're married to our spouses, our partners and our kids. Wouldn't it be nice to make that, you know, 8/10/12 hours of just a little bit more enjoyable? Yeah, not an absolute like death March. Yeah, it would be.

It would be great, but I did want to, I wanted to go back a little bit to the, to the Mogadishu thing, everybody, you know, sorry I took this. I took this generomo. No, This is why this is what I wanted to talk to you about. But you know, everybody's aware of the movie Black Hawk Down in the book and all that kind of stuff. You know, they were awesome. I loved them both. What was your initial reaction when you, when you and your, your friends and, you know, teammates heard like, oh, there's going to be a book coming out?

Obviously I know you're involved in the writing of the book and all that kind of stuff. But was it far enough after the fact where you're like, OK, now I've got some perspective on this? Or was it still like a little too fresh in your mind where you're like, I don't know, man. Like I remember what happened, but I'm not. I don't know that I have any broad thoughts about it. So this is this is, it's a great question because in 2026 with, you know, or, or, or our media and the, our ability to do all of the technology that we have, everything's real time, everything's fast, it happens and all this stuff, you know, this is the battle happened in 1993 as a reference and sometime in 1994 ish, I can't remember exactly right.

I'm walking into to, to work to the third range of battalion and the, the company commander is standing on the front steps as I'm, I'm walking literally in it at 5:30 and whatever time in the morning, you know, and give him the salute and greeting And he's like, yeah, B Sergeant and everything be in the, the conference room at, you know, at 09 because there's, there's a journalist that wants to talk to some, some of you. You're like, you know, yes, Sir. OK. And show up at 09. And it's this guy named Mark Bowden and public affairs officers and, and I promise the story will make sense in a SEC. We sit down and apparently we we talked for a couple of hours. You know, he and I didn't, there were probably 568 Rangers that Bowden had gotten permission to speak to. And I was one of them and did this long interview. And I remember he turned on a tape recorder and can I just started talking and poor guys eyes are like rolling back in his head and you know, left and

sort of went on to training and that was that. Never thought about it, never heard from him, nothing 0 like that. Was that probably in I think it was in if it was December, it was either like December of 1996 or December of 1997, one of the two. And this thing called the Internet had just come out. Like it just literally came out and I'm walking into work again and one of these these little nerdy privates is like starting everyone. I can hear your voice on the radio. What the fuck are you talking about? Pardon me.

And and this Philadelphia Inquirer where Mark Bowden work had set up a website and they were publishing 1 chapter each day. And I don't even think it had a title, but it was about the battle in Mogadishu. That was it. And, you know, it was being simultaneously printed in all the Knight Ridder newspapers. And they were. Doing. Online and I didn't have a computer then, didn't even know what 1 and why anybody would have such a thing and I'm like this. Poor kid sounds great.

Was a hacker, he probably the pastor probably stole something and I didn't get the newspaper because, you know, I'm 27 or 28, whatever it is. And anyway to land the whole plane, knock on my door in my apartment that weekend and a buddy of mine comes in and he drops the Philadelphia Inquirer on the floor. And I'm like, what the hell. He's like, man, you're on the front page. And sure enough, that was the the what turned out to be the book Black Hawk Down came out, you know, right there in this newspaper. And this is all long winded thing to answer your question, I had totally forgotten about the interview. I mean, I certainly feel events that were always, you know, I'd totally forgotten about the interview And, and, and I remember like looking at it, I'm like, huh, that's interesting. I, I, I wonder if anybody will read it. Like that was my first time.

I wonder if anybody will read it. And the server on the Philadelphia Inquirer website crashed that day because there were so many, there were like 250,000 hits and you know, like the first two minutes and just, you know, blew the whole thing up. And, and it's sort of a fun story, but the, the idea was like, you know, at that time we were like, hey, history, it's done like that. That really aim to kind of cut to the cheese that we were like, wow, man.

Like, I mean, that's cool and all, but you know, we're, we're focused on now we're focused on the next mission. And I remember, you know, reading in it again, thinking, I don't even remember this dude. I don't even remember this guy. This Internet stuff doesn't make any sense. And sure enough, about a year later, all of a sudden the the the book came out. And then, you know, it just became, and I must admit it, a little strange for me, being the first guy mentioned in the, the book and then being a character, for whatever reason they chose to be in the movie kind of gives me a unique circumstance that it's, it's just wild.

I guess the, the, the, the final comment, at least to, to that question, though, is personally, you know, I, I, I made peace with the experience in Mogadishu really early on, like, you know, went through the grief of losing soldiers and friends, processing all that, you know, young, we don't normally talk about mortality as as young men and women and maybe even as old men and women. We don't. But you know, going through all that, that trauma of, of battle, you know, I'm very thankful that, that I was able, I believe, to process and deal with and, you know, kind of spit out the bad and keep the good and all that kind of stuff.

So when this all came out, it wasn't at all like, Oh my gosh, you know, the, the, the memories. I mean, yeah, there's some sad stuff. Then you revisit. But it also was like, man, those guys are pretty freaking brave. Holy shit. Look at what these guys. Yeah. And I'm learning about what other guys did on the battlefield because, you know, you know, all I know really first hand is the stuff, you know, in my, my so that was, I found it on the other hand to be like, it's fascinating. That's the really interesting part to me, Matt, I just read this past week your first hand account, the Battle of Mogadishu book that has your account in several other soldiers who were there that day or the following days too.

And that was my one of my main takeaways was they all had their sort of like pie piece view of what happened that day, you know, which makes complete sense. But when you read the book or you read, they do such a nice job of tying all the narratives in, like orienting you around the city of like, OK, Matt's unit is here now and the crash site is over here and the convoy is doing this. So you have like this large picture in your head.

But like you said for you, you were like, I saw this four way intersection. That's what I saw. And then I was in a Humvee and then I saw that. And then I was on the airfield and it's all just. So when you read the book or you know, have you seen the movie? I know that's a crazy question, but have you watched the movie? I have and you know it. It was one of those I I I can't don't want to be a weasel, but I, I got to see the first private screening up up at new up in Sony headquarters in New York by myself. Oh, cool.

Yeah. No, it was, it was really pretty cool. And I remember like, it was walking into this, as you might imagine, what a screening room at Sony headquarters in New York looks like. It's it is that cool? At least it wasn't. And I remember getting ready to sit down in the seat, you know, by myself. And it dawned on me, like, man, what? What happens if this thing sucks? You know, like. Really. Like, you know, I'm getting like, you know, there's a character forever named Matt Eversman. Yeah.

Is just going to be there. And if this, if, if this, if they flubbed it, you know, this is Barney Fife Eversman, you know, like this. And I remember really being being nervous. And then they opened the thing up and man, 3 hours later, I'm sitting on the front of my seat. I mean, truly sitting on the front of my seat. And I, I, again, it's hard to be objective and I appreciate why somebody would say that, you know, really can't listen to Matt on this. But if I could be somewhat objective, I, I, I would say I think it's very authentic and I think they did a very good job. As close to being real as Hollywood can be given, you know, the movie formula.

Cause. And I also had the benefit of, of, of talking to, to Jerry Bruckheimer and Ridley Scott about how they make movies. And, you know, I got to go to the set and listen to, you know, hey, they, they can only, you can't tell an 18 hour gunfight in 18 hours. You got to condense it and you can only have a couple of characters. So we got to got to mold some together. Like there's a formula that they follow. And sure, I, I, I will say I, I, I did, I think they did, I think they did a, a good job.

And the fact that here it is 20, I came out in 2001, December of 2001. So 25 years later, it's still you walk on a plane and I'm, I'm seeing somebody watching on the plane and I'm like, yes, it's almost, I, I feel like I should say something, but I don't, I just got to sit back. And if they only knew. That's another question. It's, it's interesting. I, it's a really good movie. I and I remember at the time it came out, I was, I don't know, 2829 when it came out. And I remember thinking like this is one of the best like of these type of movies.

And I knew it was really Scott. So I knew it would be great. And I was like, this is really, really good, but I didn't know I'd read the book. But you never know, like what's real and what's a composite character and that sort of thing. But to hear your experience getting to talk to the director and the producers and you know that private screening, that's, that's a really kind thing I would assume that they did for you because. Yeah. Sitting at a crowded theatre would not have been much fun for you, I can't imagine. Yeah, it, I eventually got to go see it in crowded theatres because every one of your friends was like, hey, I want to watch it with you. I'm waiting to watch it with you. And.

Oh my God, it's not like it's not a ROM com that we're going to see. I I mean, I bet I saw it easily a dozen times at theaters and business. But and again, I loved every minute of it because your friends that care and want to do it with you. But what I was going to say, you know, about the, you know, the, the movie folks with and this I think is worth worth singing out loud too, because I went out prepared to completely hate all the Hollywood people. Of course, go ahead.

That I am. And I'm like, you know, you know, you know, Hollywood super liberal match, super conservative, and you know, we don't nary the two shall meet. And, you know, just all that knucklehead stuff. And certainly there's a little bit of truth in both sides. But I got to tell you from day one, from literally the first time that I walked into Jerry Bruckheimer's office at his invitation to come out and, and see the, the, the first draft of the the screenplay till the couple of premiere movie premieres we were invited to. They were nothing but professional, like truly and not being patronizing, not being, you know, like saccharine, you know, here's our our army guys and let's just be. No, they were just they, they treated certainly me nothing but professionally and kindly.

And yeah, I, I, I, I, I walked away like wow, man, I this shame on me again. Shame on me for, for being that guy. And also, wow, talk about creative, like that whole group, it's like the most creative people in the world. And they all work hard. They all work so freaking hard. I mean, everybody in that industry works hard, at least what I saw on on a movie set, which was kind of new, kind of cool. Oh yeah, making a movie looks like an absolute nightmare experience. Like it looks so hard.

Yeah, just in the movie, let alone something like that. It it's like the, you know, it's like a military operation. I mean, it really is, you know, and Ridley Scott and Jerry are the generals. But then, you know, and they're, they're doing great things up, up, up high, but then down low, you know, they've got the Sergeant major just cracking heads keeping people in mind and, you know, jerking and not in the ass of the actor. It's like, Hey, I don't give a shit who you are. You're you're doing what I say. You're like, oh, wow, that guy's that guy's kind of scary.

That was cool. It really was cool. That's that's a podcast for for another day. There's so many cool things to to talk about the movie set, but. Oh, I'm sure. I mean. Then they were so kind. They they really were. And to this day, I always got a soft spot for for Jerry Bruckheimer and Ridley Scott for sure. That's great to hear. I love that and it I'm sure it doesn't hurt that Josh Hartnett played you. So, you know, that's, that's not tough. Shocking comparison, you know, with me and I, I will say again, lovely young guy.

Couldn't have been, couldn't have been more more friendly. It was a little awkward, as you might imagine, for both of us. Like I'm sure. It's just really strange that this guy goes out with, you know, at the time was like, I'm dating Scarlett Johansson and I'm not, you know, you're like, wow, this this guy is like my hero. But he was very kind. Josh was was was wonderful. And he I think he did again, how can I be objective? But I think he did that a good job.

I mean, the character, again, at the end of the day, I'm like, I don't look at it and be like, oh, man, that's sort of nervous, man, you know, horrible. I'm like, no, you know, I mean, a couple of things that anyone knows me knows that's it's not quite my personality, but it, it was for the movie and for the role. It it, it worked. And yeah, far more good than than any bad. And if there is any bad, it's it's minuscule shit. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the the movie still holds up 25 years later. It's, you know, the story is there and it's, you know, realistic from, you know, it's a layperson's point of view. And yeah, it's, it's really well done. It's it just sounds like a completely surreal experience seeing you know you're you're a someone playing you on a on a 60 foot movie screen.

It's it's it is, it's buffoonery. There's no doubt about it. But you know, it also fair to say too, and and again, I'm I know I'm not the expert film critic or anything, but I've told people a million times since then. I'm like, you know, if you want to know what urban battles like, watch that movie. Like at least regardless of storyline, what watch the movie. It's that, you know, frenetic, it's that chaotic Ridley Scott purposely made the volume, made it louder to the point that, you know, because he wanted people to to really feel it.

And, you know, all the bad things that happened are are legitimately all the bad things that happened. And so if you want to know, you know, you could you could say to somebody, hey, man, what would you have done? Whether you're saying that in a yeah, you know, don't be a Monday morning quarterback or hey, it's really hard. What I mean, what would you have done? I, you know, guys are running on the roof with RPG. What what do you do? How do you how do you combat that? You know, so that that movie, I think does have a legit purpose specifically to that because of that battle was so unique. And then it was played out, you know, in, you know, 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan too, you know, in very similar environment.

So I think it it does give you a visual. I am shocked at how many, you know, how many soldiers in particular. But people in general will, will say, like, you know, grandmother will come up to me. And it's like, that's my grandson's favorite movie. I'm like, well, you know, how old's your grandson? Like he's 10. What? Like what are you? Doing What are we doing? No, I mean, but yeah, no, a lot of people just and God love them, but I find it just it's it's it's well done.

It's really well. But I I can't say it's my favorite movie, but. I I would think not. It's Yeah, it it seems like one of those things it is cool to have done. Like, it's cool that it exists, but you probably don't want to sit down on a Saturday afternoon and watch it again. Yeah, Yeah. Well, well, would, would you? You know, we, we showed it to my daughter. We're blessed with I was going to ask you that and we. We sort of, you know, Molly would didn't, really couldn't figure it out until, you know, she got a little bit older and older and she knew the story.

But we said like, yeah, we're, we're, we're we're not going to watch it And, and until, you know, the right time and when you watch it, you're going to watch it with mom and dad. And, you know, I think it was when she was 15. I think of 15, we watched it together for the first time. And, you know, as you can imagine how dramatic that might be, it was just that and, you know, very great family moment. But, you know, she's like, yeah, I don't need to see it again.

Like, and my wife's the same thing. She's like, yeah, I don't need to see it again. I'm like, I hear you. I do, but people, people, people who it's, you know, just, you know, sort of divorce myself from the reality. I just find it interesting like because it's I tell people all the time when they that haven't seen it, I'm like, you know, it's not a happy movie. I mean, sure, there's depictions of incredible courage and bravery and tenacity and all this it resolve of the fighting man and woman and all that stuff, but you know, it's not, you know, you got to be in the right mind to be uplifted.

Yeah. The end of it all, and certainly, you know, that's the theme is all very uplifting, but it's, it's, it's, it's tragic, you know, I mean, it's just just reality of combat and combat sucks. Combat's evil, scary and sad. Yeah, having never gone through that, I was struck by your in that first person account that you wrote early on in that you talk about how, you know, you, you were kind of eager to like go to combat in like that's a, you know, a very common mindset in the young soldier of like, I want to go and test myself in this way.

I'm curious what your, you know, reaction was after that. You mentioned that you had been on submissions previous to, you know, the events of October 3rd. But I I'm curious what your what your mindset was afterwards? Yeah, well, you know, it's a couple of things that come through and they all seemingly might be pulling in opposite directions. Could you realize, I guess in no particular order, Dennis, you know, what I realized is like, you know, they're they're bad people out here, evil people, enemies that that want to do us harm. And we need we need to fight them. Like that's there's just new two ways about it. We need a force that's willing to go and, you know, and fight like that.

There's no, that's it. And that I got, and I also realized like, man, you know, it's an imperfect science and you only learn by doing it, you know, being you, you only learn how to get better by by by doing it. And, you know, you think about all the mistakes that were made. And I'm talking about just me, my mistakes, man. You know, I, I, I wish somebody would have told me some of this stuff before. You know, I never talked to any guys that have been to combat before. And even though I surrounded by him and all these guys in the Rangers that have been to Panama, you know, and jumped in and that been in fights, you know, I was too, too nervous or intimidated to ask him. And for whatever reason, nobody felt like they was worth sharing.

And after this battle on October 3rd, you know, guys that have been to both of them said, man, you know, I thought Panama was, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then this, this just was 10 times different. I'm like, well, shit, that would have been good to know. And then I think I also realized like, you know, and this took a little longer to figure out, but it was like, man, I hope that whoever is in charge, you know, is doing this for doing this, meaning sending us, you know, they better be doing for a good reason.

Because when you got to go home and introduce yourself to a 23 year old widow and explain to her or him in this case, you know, in the current time, but you got to explain to them, you know, we've just turned your world completely upside down forever. And it was worth it because. And some people might have a very stock answer for that. I find that to be really challenging sort of in the don't be an asshole, you know, category. Like, you know, you can't bullshit this person.

If you do, you're a bad person. But so how do you how do you justify, you know, that to to a young widow? And sometimes you can like, hey, man, he he died protecting somebody. Like I can tell you when he took his last breath, he did this and that was that. And they're like cool. But then when you look and you Fast forward, you know, go for further Dennis, you know, and you're like, say, for instance, at the at the beginning, back to our favorite strategic world, you know, like so we left 19 bodies, you know, 19 bodies of, you know, blood on the streets of Mogadishu. And it's no better off today.

You know, that's the kind of the answer is we need strong defense. We need people that want to fight and we kids to protect and serve 100% then some. But man, if you're going to use them, the people that are going to use them better have their shit straight. And I'm not sure that all of them in concert always do. And now that we got to go down the whole political rabbit hole, I don't mean to, you know, we all have our opinions, but universally, when you ask, you know, what to learn, what do you take away at Mike? Yeah, man, it's easy to talk a big game until you've been shot at.

And some people once is enough and call it a day. And I don't blame them. And other people are like, hey, man, no, I, I despite all that, I still want to. I still want to serve. And and I wanted to continue serving. And so I went up doing, you know, 20 years and, and a couple extra months. But I did, I think everybody would tell you it's, it's scary and it's, it's not, it's no fun when you see, you know, a friend of yours get get hurt or killed. There's just nothing cool, nothing sexy, nothing. All that stuff goes out the window and you're like that. That's a really tough, that's a bitter pill to swallow. And sadly, it's a reality of that profession. Yeah, I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to bring us all the way down. I asked the question. I'm the idiot you. Know, it's serious business too, you know, and it's not something we can take lightly and it's not, you know, it just isn't. And I think sometimes, again, over, you know, decades, we've gotten a little numb to it. You know, we citizens have gotten a little numb to American sons and daughters being out in, you know, in in tough spots for us.

And they are today, I mean, real time. It's, it's almost 5 of, you know, 6IN in Mogadishu. And we got people out there fighting Al Shabaab, you know, get after it and God love him for it. But hopefully it's hopefully they get home safely. Anyway, That's, that's, that's a long, long answer to your to your question, my friend and I, I'm sorry. Not at all. No. I mean, yeah, I Yeah. Well, I think that's probably a great place to end it. Matt, I I can't thank you enough for all your time. And, I mean, this was an absolute honor to have you on here and to get to hear your story and hear your your lessons and hear your thoughts on resilience and leadership. And you know how you've gone about that in your career. Thank you so much for your time.

Yeah, well, Dennis, thank you. And again, I know an unlikely guest, you know, in the cyber world, but I do appreciate you having, having me on and thank you for for all you're doing. And yeah, man, it's it's it's it's a good day. It's a good way to spend the morning. I appreciate the the fun conversation. Good questions. All right. Thanks a lot, Matt. Take care of yourself. Hi buddy, be safe. You too.